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Daemons Regarding Conception and Pregnancy [R] « Thread Started on Oct 22, 2009, 7:12am »
Right, I've noticed there have been a few theories on the site regarding this and I've been mulling it over and feel like a good 'ol ramble and explaining. (Those of you who have PMs from me will know how I love to ramble XD)
Right. Let's get down to it. (Spoilers Present)
Sex
Being an extension of someones soul, obviously means that the daemon will experience something during sex. It's just difficult to say exactly what.
I purpose that there are two different daemon interactions for the two types of sex - emotionally involved and unemotionally involved.
If there is a deep meaningful connection between two people with daemons in Lyra's world sex will involve the intimacies with their daemons. Will and Lyra touch each others daemons, it's been assumed so far that all lovers do so. Deep, loving sex would probably involve the absolute caressing of your lovers daemon, or a delicate touching. If their humans are in love, chances are the daemons will be and therefore will interact with each other in a physical manner - we all know the example of the Golden Monkey sinking his teeth into Stelmaria's fur.
So foreplay and sex will be echoed in daemons behaviour. It may look sore or such, but sex can be a hefty thing on a persons soul (supposing we have such a thing). Deeply emotionally draining.
It will also depend on the persons daemon, some may be more aggressive by nature - others more standoffish. In an intimate loving relationship - daemons will definitely touch and interact. For example, a insect daemon may scamper over a dog daemons body or a cat may claw it's bird daemon. The animals own ritual mating may play a part, for example. Traska would probably peak the other daemon in the face, as that's what weird-ass paradise's do when they're mating. Big cats maybe aggressive, teeth sinking - growling, clawing. Placid daemon may prefer to stroke or gently nibble. The daemon of the dominant sexual partner usually issues the contact, but obviously with insects and small mammals it's probably them that have to issue it - due to practicality. There are other exceptions again depending on daemon personality.
Casual sex can involve or not involve daemons depending on their willingness to participate. Morpheusa is still a virgin daemon, for example, due to her unwillingness to aid Richards need for knickers. Other's may find it satisfying to the soul but not to themselves, more, evil people. Some may find it healthy and rewarding in every way. All depends on the person/daemon combination. It is more likely that daemons avoid each other in this situation, but in cases like rape or unrequited love one daemon may be willing and one not. Unrequited love may seem like Daemon-rape, if one daemon wishes to receive pleasure.
Orgasms. I do believe however, if an orgasm is reached in any kind of sex that both human and daemon should share that - due to it not really seeming like a purely physical experience, but like everything - that is debatable.
Pregnancy
It's a very controversial subject of when a person has a soul, and therefore a daemon. Some people believe it is right from conception and others from birth. I therefore suggest that it varies from pregnancy to pregnancy. Pregnant women will seem to have two daemons from when the daemon first appears, the young daemon changes and behaves like normal but can't communicate and prefers to stay close to the stomach of the pregnant woman. If the daemon becomes separated or extinguished by accident, this sadly results in losing the baby. Babies born without daemons first arriving, are always stillborn. Babies whose daemons have arrived may perish during birth as normal
I thought perhaps the mans daemon, the female daemon would birth the new daemon - but this is extremely unlikely. The father of children would always be known and how would the new daemon get to the baby if it were 100s of miles away? Also, since people occasionally have daemons of the same sex (homosexual or not) it is possible a baby daemon could be born to two male daemons - making this impossible. So I think it is most likely that dust settles nearby or on the woman and takes the form of an animal which makes its way towards the human and bump. The first daemon depends on the child but many factors can venture in.
Agnes' first daemon was a Robin - a deceivingly aggressive bird. Robin's peck each other to death over territory and mating rights - it was an indication of her soul. A person's life shapes their daemon but a certain amount of 'fate' is involved.
A couple of you guys listed you're first daemons, tell me what they were :-D
Opinions appreciated, if we can get this confirmed then I would like to try and plan a long-term pregnancy for Agnes - not for a while though.
Edward Branson Scholar Celebrated, determined, scary, hardened, successful, bad arsed and cakey assassin member is offline
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Re: Daemons Regarding Conception and Pregnancy [R] « Reply #1 on Oct 22, 2009, 11:22pm »
Fu fu fu. Very interesting topic. I will just get my copy of "His Dark Materials" out and skim through some parts before replying. But everything you said looks good on screen, Emma!
My first daemon, no, wait, Viktoria's first daemon shape was a lioness. She rarely rarely changed, it was almost as if she was settled already...
I chose to put it that way because, well, those of you have seen Branson will know what I mean when I say he doesn't seem like a man who had much of a child chilldhood. He was loved, he had his funny moments...his childhood was normal, but Branson's character just doesn't seem...
I shall find my word in the dictionary and get back here.
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Re: Daemons Regarding Conception and Pregnancy [R] « Reply #2 on Oct 24, 2009, 1:47am »
VERY good point on the high infant mortality rate because of how easy it is to extinguish baby daemons. xD I actually think that daemons just appear out of thin air. Seriously, I have this little idea in my head that the baby is born, there is a solidifying of dust near the baby, and then...the baby daemon's first form is formed. xD Of course, good old PP had never ever thought of how daemons were born, so this really really is how fans would interpret it. There will be no right or wrong, but I do do do think that we need to somehow organise our thoughts and put it in a daemon constitution to help clear the foggy bits on daemonlogy...we will see how it goes. xD
I will put Morpheusa's birth into a very brief RP to illustrate how exactly I envisioned daemon births to be. And how midwives might play a role in that. xD And you guys will get a glimpse on how Richard became the man he is today.
Fyodor Juju's POV
Mrs Mackenzie had went into labour an hour ago, nearly a week ahead of schedule. The midwife had been hired by the butler nearly two weeks ago, and it was her job to ensure safe delivery of the baby.
She scanned the amount of gold in the grand bedroom. It was almost obscene how the Mackenzies flaunt their wealth. Even the woman in labour now was wearing a diamond ring which was worth a lot more than what she was being paid to deliver the baby.
And what she was being paid for this delivery was a lot more than normal.
Cioccatto, her dachshund daemon was alert for the first appearance of a baby daemon. It was his job to ensure that the daemon would be kept as close as possible to the baby. Infant mortality rates were extremely high these days, but they had a record of only two deaths in her life, and he would make sure he could keep it.
But what they had in wealth did not make up for warmth. The father of the baby was nowhere to be seen, she distinctly heard the mother ordering everyone "not to scratch the bracelet on her wrist or remove the ring on her finger", complicating an already complicated procedure. Babies rarely came out EARLY, they were late but never EARLY.
Beads of sweat rolled down her cheeks. The baby was simply refusing to emerge. She could see him kicking, but his head, where was his head?
"PUSH MRS MACKENZIE!"
Beside her, a few women were readying basins and other tools to wash the newly born. But would they be washing a live baby or a dead one?
The head of the baby finally emerged. Fyodor could see shocking blue eyes and a tuft of messy dark brown hair, and she would later swear that the baby took one good look at her before wailing his lungs out.
"Mrs Mackenzie, a boy. Congratulations."
The woman lifted her head and winced.
"Oh. So disgusting. I am not touching the filthy thing. Wash it."
The midwife passed the baby to her assistant efficiently. The young woman beside her had raised her brows in surprise as she took the baby in her arms. She had never seen a mother refer to her baby as "the thing".
Cioccatto was beside himself with anxiety. The daemon was about to appear at any time...
A clump of golden dust appeared and began to swivel and solidify near the baby who was now being weighed. The dachshund watched anxiously. In many ways, his job was the most important.
A sudden twitch, and a swallow daemon appeared. The dachshund took a step back. He had never seen a baby daemon so large before. The daemon was about as big as a three month old sparrow chick! It took flight, looking around for her human and crying loudly before swooping down again. Cioccatto took a flying leap and caught the daemon safely between her jaws. There was a myth that if the midwife and her daemon left the daemon and the baby out for JUST the right amount of time, the baby would be able to endure great distances of separation with his daemon.
But they would not test the theory now. The swallow struggled in his mouth. She flicked through various forms and the dachshund had to struggle to keep a firm grip on this one as he trotted towards the baby. Tradition dictated that he should place the daemon right beside her human on the table.
But this one was a real feisty one. She flicked between forms, settled as a German Shepard pup and ran towards her human, licking his face and washing him.
Again, the size was conspicuous. She was as large as a three month old dog, and was twice as big as her human.
What happened next was even more shocking as the baby kicked his daemon with his pudgy legs before stopping his wailing and opening his eyes. He tried to reach around the Shepard dog, but failed to do so. The daemon flicked between forms again, finally settling as a mouse and her human picked her up immediately and clutched his daemon tightly.
The dachshund's duty was to take the mice daemon and carry it out of the room, but it did not seem necessary now, as the entire procession left the room with the baby and his daemon. So, the RP was not so short after all, and this was without a doubt, one of the HARDEST RPs I have done. It raises some important questions:
a) WHO names the daemons?
b) How DO midwives help in assisting daemon deliveries?
c) ARE daemons supposed to be washed like human babies? xD I know I took the liberty with this one and ignored the new born Morpheusa but it is an interesting point...
Bonus points for anyone who can analyse what I wrote above and link it to the Richard we know today. He WOULD be very disappointed to know that his mother never even bothered to hold him when he was born.
I moved this thread to the HDM Discussion Board because it is more relevant there. xD
Joined: Oct 2009 Gender: Female Posts: 155 Karma: 11
Re: Daemons Regarding Conception and Pregnancy [R] « Reply #3 on Oct 24, 2009, 7:52am »
Forgive me, I've been drinking a little bit 'ol Captain Morgans.... XD
Richard, I really liked your RP - I think the midwives daemons should have to 'deliver' the daemons. The flaw with my own theory (of a pregnant woman having two daemons) is that the sex of the child could be predetermined, which I wasn't sure about. However, I still think the daemon should be present before the child enters the world (if it is destined to live)
I wrote a quick RP down in my notebook when in the doctors the other day, concerning the arrival of Traska. It depicted Agnes' father being very worried that her daemon hadn't arrived yet and she was already overdue. But then he is finally put at ease at a robin daemon appears on the windowsil, and is let in - flying straight towards heavily pregnant mother. The parent daemons then name the daemon, settling on Merrion, then changing it to Traska because it sounds 'more heroic'. I think daemon names are more unique than human names. From this the parents then named their (presumingly) female child - she was born the next day.
I was born nearly 2 weeks early, my birthdays next week! :-D 1st Nov ^.^
I think my deamon would be either a ram, an ovenbird or a spider. Probably an Ovenbird.
Edward Branson Scholar Celebrated, determined, scary, hardened, successful, bad arsed and cakey assassin member is offline
Knowledge always carries risk as well as reward
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Re: Daemons Regarding Conception and Pregnancy [R] « Reply #4 on Oct 26, 2009, 2:09am »
Daemon names come from their parent's daemon's names. I read about it somewhere. I would imagine that the parents named the children's daemons. I never thought of this point, but on hindsight, maybe the daemons of the mother gave birth to the baby daemon, but his "first form" would be the first form which he adopts after his initial form when he is born because, taking Mrs Coulter's daemon for example. The golden monkey will give birth to a golden monkey daemon, but Pantalaimon's first form would be considered to be the form which he adopts after Pantalaimon switches from golden monkey daemon to...
Both of your theories are valid, as Mr Pullman never did explain how daemons appeared, so it is really open to interpretation.
I just took one of those daemon tests online and mine seems to be a dolphin.
Super. I never ever thought of myself as a dolphin. I can not even swim very well. I may put a RP on how Branson was born, but, Richard, an analysis, which will bore everyone else.
Firstly, cold, clinical choice of diction. You used a strange foreshadowing technique where the midwife actually thought of her salary and how her daemon would "would make sure he could keep it." It struck a note on how the RP would proceed. Childbirth, which was supposed to be an event for celebration, is now effectively reduced to something which the participants in it serve to extend their childbirth record. When Richard is born, you used "anxiety", "refuse", among others. Not one word of happiness or excitement, which others might associate with welcoming a new life into the world, especially a world with a high mortality rate. This is a subtle indication to how Richard will live his life in the Mackenzies.
Secondly, Mrs Mackenzie's refusal to hold her son, again, foreshadowing on your part. Morpheusa's first form is a swallow. Swallows migrate to temperatures which suit them, so is this another foreshadowing on Richard's mercenary skills? An indication that he will move wherever the money is? But then again, swallows are birds, and those with bird daemons are considered to be wise, so this could also be a double indication that Morpheusa would be wise. Their bond seems close, Ciocatto does not need to usher Morpheusa towards her human. She instinctively glides over to comfort him. Her human, on the other hand, kicks her, but she changes form so that he can pick her up. Excellent use of diction and structure at this point, I do believe this is the most important point of the whole RP.
I am not sure why you named Fyodor's daemon chocolate. I will presume you were just joking.
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I may put a RP on how Branson was born, but, Richard, an analysis, which will bore everyone else.